This is really nice. Thank you, Casey. These seemingly small domestic scenarios, to me, are the biggest threat to relationships. They can seem too small to one partner to take seriously, while piling up over and over again as evidence to the other that they're not loved and cared for.
I really HATE when the defensive person, usually the man, says that he's really busy and has lots on his minds and with work, etc. SO DO WOMEN. Except that we're also expected NOT to be too busy or mentally overtaxed to remember all the things. So we develop coping mechanisms to keep all the pieces moving. Let's hold everyone to the same standards. Men, in my experience, aren't stupid.
if only standards and expectations were the same for males and females. but no. I'd actually appreciate hearing from a guy if he does feel over-worked and stressed. Instead, my partner doesn't say much, so I get to choose between second-guessing him (ooh I hate doing that, try not to, but it's a habit) -- or deciding for myself how to address my own sense of overload. Matthew's book and newsletter etc. have prompted me to dig a little deeper and try to glean what it is I want to give and to get. I'm lucky that i happen to have a husband I really like. Before him I thought relationships mattered, but looking back, I'm better off without those other guys. just a thought re time and relationships.
I haven't read Fair Play, but the division of responsibilities described sort of cracks me up. My philosophy is that the person most bothered by the problem should take the lead on fixing it. If the wife frets every day about the clogged drain and the husband doesn't even notice it, my girl should buy some Drano or call a plumber.
That’s where I come out, too, Charlie. I appreciate Alicia’s philosophy very much. If everyone had it, we’d have very little relationship conflict.
As it is, we have a lot of little broken promises in relationships, and eventually, trust goes away and pain enters the picture when it happens consistently over years.
If I say I’m the plumbing repair person—either myself, or managing the hiring of the repair person—then I’m breaking a promise when I don’t do it.
Promise breaking is pretty much always a hindrance to healthy relationships.
I hear that. In my marriage, my husband does plumbing stuff because he doesn't want to pay someone else to do it, and he thinks my solutions (Drano) actually make things worse. But he's also the one that is most bothered by a clogged drain, so it works out.
There are certainly things around the house that he says he's going to fix/improve but hasn't gotten around to yet. But again, none of them aggravate me daily. I guess if they did, I'd probably give a deadline, i.e., If this isn't fixed by the end of the month I'm hiring someone to do it.
What is it that makes the marriage worth preserving for each spouse in this instance? It seems like even with the husband working hard to change his behavior, the wife is going to routinely feel like “ she cannot trust her husband to exercise care around the things that negatively affect her if he doesn’t consider them important or worthy of immediate action. He only takes meaningful action when HE has decided something is important.” And “ When will I ever be enough? When will I be able to trust him to care about the things that affect me, even if they aren’t affecting him?”
It doesn’t sound to me like this passes the “would you want this for your child test”. Is this the kind of marriage you would want for your daughter? Is this the kind of marriage you would want for your son (assuming that the son in this hypothetical has ADHD)? It sounds like the husband in this situation is going to work very hard, and the outcome is going to be that the wife doesn’t feel loved, nor does he. It seems like it would be much better for both of them to no longer be married. Maybe they could find someone who they don’t find hard to love, and who doesn’t find it hard to love them. Even if they remained single, it seems like they would be better off feeling constantly let down and alone.
I think it’s difficult for anyone who isn’t the actual participants in a marriage and co-parents to the specific children they share to fairly evaluate the merits of fighting for a marriage and family.
I understand what you’re saying as an intellectual exercise. Impossible to calculate for love and the pain of losing time with those you love most.
I think some of this might be generational as well as gender-based. My grandparents were Greatest Generation, when people were much more likely to stay married no matter how bad it was. Boomers, as the Me Generation, were more likely to divorce if they weren't happy. I'm Gen X; we're very self sufficient and tend to focus on what we can control and make peace with what we can't. But my younger friends are much less inclined to "settle" for a less than perfect union, and they would rather stay single.
I also grew up in a time when women were under intense pressure to be married, and it was a big life goal in our 20s/30s to "find the one" and get hitched. I suspect that men, especially millennial and Gen Z men, don't really understand that pressure. "Why stay together if there is conflict and angst?" they ask, shaking their heads. As Matthew points out, intellectually that makes sense, but there's a lot more going on.
Lately I’ve tried the Let Them thing per Mel Robbins. Followed by her Let Me practice. Oddly enough I have been unclogging sink, shower and toilet clogs myself. I love my ‘forgetful’ husband. Put myself into counseling a while. Feeling lots better by staying in my own lane and not expecting him to ‘get around to’ projects that are not important to him, but important to me. I say that we females can put the dam glass in the dishwasher and carry on. A clear counter is Very important to me but he doesn’t see that as his problem. It’s taken me several years to get here and it still feels experimental, but I like feeling capable, energized and free.
I absolutely love your writing and how you unpack seemingly mundane events that are so much more than that!
Thank you, Matthew. 🙏
This is really nice. Thank you, Casey. These seemingly small domestic scenarios, to me, are the biggest threat to relationships. They can seem too small to one partner to take seriously, while piling up over and over again as evidence to the other that they're not loved and cared for.
I really HATE when the defensive person, usually the man, says that he's really busy and has lots on his minds and with work, etc. SO DO WOMEN. Except that we're also expected NOT to be too busy or mentally overtaxed to remember all the things. So we develop coping mechanisms to keep all the pieces moving. Let's hold everyone to the same standards. Men, in my experience, aren't stupid.
if only standards and expectations were the same for males and females. but no. I'd actually appreciate hearing from a guy if he does feel over-worked and stressed. Instead, my partner doesn't say much, so I get to choose between second-guessing him (ooh I hate doing that, try not to, but it's a habit) -- or deciding for myself how to address my own sense of overload. Matthew's book and newsletter etc. have prompted me to dig a little deeper and try to glean what it is I want to give and to get. I'm lucky that i happen to have a husband I really like. Before him I thought relationships mattered, but looking back, I'm better off without those other guys. just a thought re time and relationships.
I wholeheartedly agree.
I haven't read Fair Play, but the division of responsibilities described sort of cracks me up. My philosophy is that the person most bothered by the problem should take the lead on fixing it. If the wife frets every day about the clogged drain and the husband doesn't even notice it, my girl should buy some Drano or call a plumber.
But if the husband has agreed to do the plumbing…
That’s where I come out, too, Charlie. I appreciate Alicia’s philosophy very much. If everyone had it, we’d have very little relationship conflict.
As it is, we have a lot of little broken promises in relationships, and eventually, trust goes away and pain enters the picture when it happens consistently over years.
If I say I’m the plumbing repair person—either myself, or managing the hiring of the repair person—then I’m breaking a promise when I don’t do it.
Promise breaking is pretty much always a hindrance to healthy relationships.
Moreover, as my wife says, my agreeing to fix the plumbing (without doing so) disempowers her (in various low key ways) from fixing it herself.
I hear that. In my marriage, my husband does plumbing stuff because he doesn't want to pay someone else to do it, and he thinks my solutions (Drano) actually make things worse. But he's also the one that is most bothered by a clogged drain, so it works out.
There are certainly things around the house that he says he's going to fix/improve but hasn't gotten around to yet. But again, none of them aggravate me daily. I guess if they did, I'd probably give a deadline, i.e., If this isn't fixed by the end of the month I'm hiring someone to do it.
What is it that makes the marriage worth preserving for each spouse in this instance? It seems like even with the husband working hard to change his behavior, the wife is going to routinely feel like “ she cannot trust her husband to exercise care around the things that negatively affect her if he doesn’t consider them important or worthy of immediate action. He only takes meaningful action when HE has decided something is important.” And “ When will I ever be enough? When will I be able to trust him to care about the things that affect me, even if they aren’t affecting him?”
It doesn’t sound to me like this passes the “would you want this for your child test”. Is this the kind of marriage you would want for your daughter? Is this the kind of marriage you would want for your son (assuming that the son in this hypothetical has ADHD)? It sounds like the husband in this situation is going to work very hard, and the outcome is going to be that the wife doesn’t feel loved, nor does he. It seems like it would be much better for both of them to no longer be married. Maybe they could find someone who they don’t find hard to love, and who doesn’t find it hard to love them. Even if they remained single, it seems like they would be better off feeling constantly let down and alone.
I think it’s difficult for anyone who isn’t the actual participants in a marriage and co-parents to the specific children they share to fairly evaluate the merits of fighting for a marriage and family.
I understand what you’re saying as an intellectual exercise. Impossible to calculate for love and the pain of losing time with those you love most.
I think some of this might be generational as well as gender-based. My grandparents were Greatest Generation, when people were much more likely to stay married no matter how bad it was. Boomers, as the Me Generation, were more likely to divorce if they weren't happy. I'm Gen X; we're very self sufficient and tend to focus on what we can control and make peace with what we can't. But my younger friends are much less inclined to "settle" for a less than perfect union, and they would rather stay single.
I also grew up in a time when women were under intense pressure to be married, and it was a big life goal in our 20s/30s to "find the one" and get hitched. I suspect that men, especially millennial and Gen Z men, don't really understand that pressure. "Why stay together if there is conflict and angst?" they ask, shaking their heads. As Matthew points out, intellectually that makes sense, but there's a lot more going on.
Lately I’ve tried the Let Them thing per Mel Robbins. Followed by her Let Me practice. Oddly enough I have been unclogging sink, shower and toilet clogs myself. I love my ‘forgetful’ husband. Put myself into counseling a while. Feeling lots better by staying in my own lane and not expecting him to ‘get around to’ projects that are not important to him, but important to me. I say that we females can put the dam glass in the dishwasher and carry on. A clear counter is Very important to me but he doesn’t see that as his problem. It’s taken me several years to get here and it still feels experimental, but I like feeling capable, energized and free.
48th anniversary last weekend, still friends